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More on pre-vacuuming
#1
It's the fine particulate soil that I am most concerned about when pre-vacuuming. And not all vacuums sucks this stuff up.

An important benefit of using a vacuum with a dirt cut is that you can see what you are sucking up while you are vacuuming! I am not impressed, nor do I care if I am vacuuming up a bunch of staple yarns. Who cares!

Here is an example of fine particulate soil I vacuumed out of 2,850 sq. ft. of commercial glue down at a church. I encapped this carpet a year ago, so yes, some of this soil may be dried polymer. But I routinely vacuum up this stuff on new jobs that were previously hot water extracted.

I know for a fact that my ProTeam 1500XP would not have sucked nearly as much as my Heavy Duty Bissell.



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#2
Another really great video from Paul! I really like them...

Now to go look in my "Shark" Commercial again.... hmmmmm ... other than looking like a space age toy... maybe it is like your Bissell? Sure seems to get a lot (and is side suction even...).

What if, after cleaning you were to post vacuum that same carpet when it was fully dry? Fibers now open, completely dry? - I really don't know even myself as I can't yet convince myself to use fans to dry before post vacuuming?

What if, after post vacuuming a totally dry, you found the same amount? Would you then, like me, feel absolutely compelled to completely dry to get the max benefit and really vacuum??

Your point is RIGHT ON THE MARK. My belief: Carpets don't wear out, they UGLY out and 99% of that UGLY comes from the type of soil you are describing.... NOT the hair/staple yarns, etc...

Running a TM's as a contractor for a brand name company, I was told that I COULD NOT have a vacuum on the truck.... that was the customer's job.... I 'could' use a few extra dry strokes if I needed as long as I kept water in the hose... How many TM operators have you seen vacuum 1st?

Anyway, I'm really really anxious to see the comparison of quantity from the post vacuum of a completely dry carpet... Then, if I'm right, I would expect you to go in with me on the extra $1600.00/per van for the downdraft fans.... ???

Thank you Paul!
Coby Gibson
formerly: http://www.45Clean.com
CobyGibson@me.com

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#3
Coby,

I did some testing in the past where I did go back and post-vacuum both commercial and residential jobs. I wanted to see just how much dry polymer we leave in the carpets. The answer: very, very, very little. I was surprised how little in fact.

Of course, post vacuuming residential cut pile is often necessary to pick up staple yarns and hair that the op machine pulled out, but this can be done while carpet is still damp.
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#4
Paul

If you want ultimate dry dirt extraction, you Need a Host Freestyle or Host Liberator machine to use as a pre-vacuum CRB. They dig out the large stuff as well as the fine particulate. Even on CGD it is stunning what they pull out of the carpet. The small Host machines without the vacuums are a waste of time and money, they are not heavy enough. I use mine on residential a lot as well to pre-vac and pre-scrub on relay dirty carpet to open up the pile before using the Trinity. There is a side by side comparison video on my you tube channel that you may have already seen where I compare the Host vs.my ProTeam.


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#5
(01-25-2014, 08:27 AM)Gary M Wrote: Paul

If you want ultimate dry dirt extraction, you Need a Host Freestyle or Host Liberator machine to use as a pre-vacuum CRB. They dig out the large stuff as well as the fine particulate. Even on CGD it is stunning what they pull out of the carpet. The small Host machines without the vacuums are a waste of time and money, they are not heavy enough. I use mine on residential a lot as well to pre-vac and pre-scrub on relay dirty carpet to open up the pile before using the Trinity. There is a side by side comparison video on my you tube channel that you may have already seen where I compare the Host vs.my ProTeam.

Gary,

A comparison against the ProTeam would not impress me, as I am already of the opinion that the ProTeam is not a good vacuum.

I would love to test the Host Liberator against the Bissell Heavy Dury, a metal Royal, and a tandom air Riccar. I don't, however, want to spend another thousand dollars on a Host machine just to test.

Are you going down to John G's thing this summer?



Are

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#6
Paul Wrote:

"An important benefit of using a vacuum with a dirt cut is that you can see what you are sucking up while you are vacuuming! I am not impressed, nor do I care if I am vacuuming up a bunch of staple yarns. Who cares!"

Paul, it's important to get as much out of the floor as possible. Yes, particulate matters, but so does staple yarn and everything else. You may not care, but I do.

You're big on the dirt cup and I don't think anyone would disagree. However, if you're concerned with cleaning the carpet to the best of your ability then you need not just a great vacuum, but a CRB too.
I'm just trying to hack my way to glory.

Get Encapsulation Pads & More!

1 X's Orbot, Windsor & Sanitare Vacs, Multisprayer, Oreck Orbitor, Stepson, BrushEncap (TM4) CRB  
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#7
Each process yields different results....

Vacuum:

[Image: 2013-07-07191619_zps8293a56e.jpg]

CRB follow up:

[Image: 2013-07-07183615_zpsfab9c617.jpg]
I'm just trying to hack my way to glory.

Get Encapsulation Pads & More!

1 X's Orbot, Windsor & Sanitare Vacs, Multisprayer, Oreck Orbitor, Stepson, BrushEncap (TM4) CRB  
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#8
Paul

I hope to go. Is there a date set yet? Are you going for sure?


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#9
Ok,

So one of the vacuum's I bought was the Shark Navigator "Professional" "lift away" (learned it was the 'lift away' after looking at some youtube infomercials.....).

Back to where I was.... especially when talking with Demer's about his misguided judgement of a "Bissell" no less....

OK, so tomorrow I'll carry the Shark on a job. Thing is just really amazing: Negatives? The thing fills up so fast with such fine particulate dirt that the filters are dirty very quick... even after the XP1500, or most certainly the Pacer 214 if that was tried.

Maybe all this time Paul was right? hmmmmmm... that will take me a while as usual.

I'll also encourage you to watch the Shark infomercials either on their "OP" machine (Shark Duo) or the vacuum I have.... wow! If we could pile all those 'buzz' words into our carpet cleaning quotes! Shazaaaaammmmm! We could buy lots of extra vacuums :-).

Got the vacuum out again tonight. Embarrassing how much dust picked up within the first 80sf. Not even my 'manly' super commercial vacuums could match.

Back to the negatives: A bagged vacuum is using a BIG filter called a BAG with lots of square inches and can be thrown away after use affordably... AND.. you don't need to keep trash bags with you to empty the containers ... which appears to be often... or the airflow starts to be restricted?

For as light as this little dude is, the brush head stands the carpet way better than the XP1500, equal to the weight/brush of the Pacer 214 or better... ALSO, this thing pulls hair like crazy... I have no pets... but lots of people hair..after this post, I'll post some questions on another post as to how/why all this good stuff we are learning should be applied?



Coby Gibson
formerly: http://www.45Clean.com
CobyGibson@me.com

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#10
How I get sidetracked testing this stuff! Demer's has a knack....

Ok Paul... you have me convinced... I'm going to put my rinky dink Vacuum to the test... I think you can now get the Shark that I have for under $200.00? Maybe still $250 with the extra goodies I hadn't used until tonight.....

Not sure how long they will hold up NOR how the Shark will do on damp carpet.. but...

Question: do you think that a big part of the difference is the "wide area gimmick", which obviously reduces CFM is the big difference? Seems that the CRI seems to rate vacuums with an 'A' (especially with onboard tools like the Shark) mostly for the smaller head?

I almost went with Dyson's just because of the ability of the customer seeing "how well" they vacuumed for me because of their claim for "no loss of suction... which I also discovered is the same as the Shark.. hmmmm". Also they say it is one of the few actually sealed vacuums that is HEPA... It just looks like a star wars toy....

Also, found "a" infomercial for the Shark:




Now to another question: whenever you start rattling this very good pre-vacuuming message, you seem to focus on how great it is for those of us in the VLM business... I loved your "5-gallon" pre-spray analogy to show what would likely been made (dirt soup) if the dirt had not been vacuumed out prior to VLM cleaning, so:

1. Do you feel a significant amount of the 2 cups of fine particulate would have been removed with your TM vs. Trinity encapsulates? (I do believe some would, but "a significant" amount?)

2. Let's say that you just did the "wide area INDUSTRIAL man vacuum" and then Trinity encapsulate/Cimex encapusulate cleaned the carpet (discounting what the pads remove with the Trinity)... We know that there would be at least two cups of fine particulate there that you picked up with the Bissell remaining: my question is if you completely dried the carpet and then used your Bissell to vacuum well... would your pull more? Or less? of the soil from the carpet? (would their be more or less than the two cups?).

3. We all want to be the best and give the best to our customers for the job they pay for .... What if Gary Morton is right? Shouldn't you/I have got the extra (cup? 2? 3? of soil) have used the Host machine like he is using?

-Point?
What/where is the stopping point? Like urine: some people believe that a water claw is best to "rinse" urine spots.... how much do they reduce the amount of bacteria/urine compared to my method? How long does it take for those bacteria, now spread around in nice warm water to grow back to larger numbers than before, albeit diluted?

There are TM people that have convinced themselves that the wet extraction removes the soil and they don't need to vacuum in spite of all evidence/manufacturer's specs to prove it has very little effect? They have happy repeat, cheerleader customer's and probably earn an income....

Most important: why are people like you and I driven to extremes!! Why can't we just learn enough to be better than everyone else????? AND stay happy with that! What percentage of carpet cleaners even know that these bulletin boards exist? Or education sources?

A lesson I haven't ever learned I guess.

By the way, I think I'm going to learn that the fine particulate soil (and actually fiber/hair as well) will be removed far more completely with my little Shark toy than my now thousands of dollars of "man-industrial" vacuums...
Coby Gibson
formerly: http://www.45Clean.com
CobyGibson@me.com

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#11
(01-26-2014, 07:57 PM)thecleaningdude Wrote: Paul Wrote:

"An important benefit of using a vacuum with a dirt cut is that you can see what you are sucking up while you are vacuuming! I am not impressed, nor do I care if I am vacuuming up a bunch of staple yarns. Who cares!"

Paul, it's important to get as much out of the floor as possible. Yes, particulate matters, but so does staple yarn and everything else. You may not care, but I do.

You're big on the dirt cup and I don't think anyone would disagree. However, if you're concerned with cleaning the carpet to the best of your ability then you need not just a great vacuum, but a CRB too.

Damon,

No disagreement about the usefulness of a CRB. I have a 17 inch and a 12 inch CRB.

My recent threads have been focusing on vacuuming, and specifically the importance of using a very good vacuum to remove fine particulate. I also hope to encourage folks to actually test their vacuum against other models.
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#12
Paul,

NO answers yet???? hmmmmm.... Ok, I'll wait...

Another experiment today on a "single" room cleaning job... In the future, I'll be following a Pacer 214, XP 1500 or other vacuum to see what can be removed after what I normally do before encapping.



Coby Gibson
formerly: http://www.45Clean.com
CobyGibson@me.com

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#13
Coby,

You asked so many questions and made so many points, I will have to address them one at a time, as I get the time to do so.

I suppose you were looking for a simple one sentence answer for most of your questions.... not a chance buddy![/color]

Coby asked, "Question: do you think that a big part of the difference is the "wide area gimmick", which obviously reduces CFM is the big difference? Seems that the CRI seems to rate vacuums with an 'A' (especially with onboard tools like the Shark) mostly for the smaller head?"

I would agree that the smaller the base the greater the CFM and vacuum per square of the opening, and that "other things being equal" a smaller base should out clean a vacuum with a larger base.

That being said, other things are seldom equal as there are numerous design features that affect the performance of a particular vacuum cleaner. These features affect the amount of airflow, agitation, and suction.
1. stiffness of brush bristles (soft brush less effective but too hard could damage carpet)
2. length of brush bristles
3. shape of brushes on brush roller (how it diverts dirt to vacuum inlet)
4. location of power supply (vacuum inlet) with a centered vacuum inlet being much better than the vacuum inlet being all the way to one side.
5. size and specs of vacuum motor
6. duel motor or single motor design
7. weight of vacuum base
8. how well the vacuum base forms a vacuum seal over the carpet while in operation. You want a negative vacuum but not a complete vacuum seal which would reduce airflow too much or stop it completely.
9. effectiveness of the roller brush belt. The round belt of the Sanitaire vacuum is a major problem of what I think would otherwise be a pretty good vacuum. It quickly stretches and slips on the brush roller resulting in inconsistent and less than optimal brush rotation.
10. the energy consumed in a bag-less vacuum separating the dirt from the airflow
11. the effectiveness of the dust containment system (bags and filters) and the negative effect on airflow

I suppose there are other factors, but you get the idea.

It is interesting that the 18 inch metal Royals are Gold rated, while the 14 inch metal Royals are only Silver rated. These machines are exactly the same except for the length of the base/brush roller. You would think such a result would cause the CRI to question its testing methods. There may be a scientific explanation, but I don't know what it could be.
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#14
WOW!! Where did that come from Paul? Whats with all the "anger?" Calm down man, we are all friends here.

Give me a call if you need to talk it out, I'm here to help. May also want to check in to "anger" Management class. I'm here for you man.
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#15
Coby asked "Do you feel a significant amount of the 2 cups of fine particulate would have been removed with your TM vs. Trinity encapsulates? (I do believe some would, but "a significant" amount?)"

I really don't want to get into the HWE vs. Low Moisture debate, but....

I think thorough pre-vacuuming is important to all methods. Dry particulate that is not "stuck" to carpet fibers due to stickiness, is best removed while dry.

I think thorough pre-vacuuming is even more important when using a low moisture method, as we are not flushing/rinsing the carpet with water, but relying on absorbent pads and post vacuuming to remove soil.

That being said, I don't believe HWE removes as much of the non-soluble soil as most HWE only guys think they are removing. I think most believe they are removing just about all if it.

They may point to the amount of particulate soil captured by their filter baskets and in-line filters, but that only shows how much they removed. It does not reveal how much they left in the carpet!

But here again, many, many variables come into play. In general, a rotary extractor will remove much more particulate than a wand. A high flow wand with good airflow and suction will remove much more than a low flow wand at the end of a portable. The degree of pre-agitation prior to HWE rinse will affect the results. For example, going over the pre-sprayed carpet with a CRB machine will help break deeply embedded particulate from the carpet fibers, and bring much of the particulate closer to the surface where it will be much more likely to be flushed out. Deeply embedded particulate at the base of a thick, plush, heavy face weight carpet will be very difficult for a HWE wand to effectively remove.

To answer your question specifically, I can only say that I believe using a Trinity with Steve's chemicals is a far superior method to clean commercial carpet than HWE (in mot cases), and that using other machines such as a Cimex or Orbot with Steve's chemicals is superior or at least as good as HWE on commercial carpet, again in most cases.
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#16
(01-28-2014, 11:19 AM)Andy Mc Wrote: WOW!! Where did that come from Paul? Whats with all the "anger?" Calm down man, we are all friends here.

Give me a call if you need to talk it out, I'm here to help. May also want to check in to "anger" Management class. I'm here for you man.

LOL
Andy, I can't believe you have the nerve to steal my comic material.

I never copied your 12 step low moisture addiction material from you.
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#17
And for the record....

It may appear to some that Coby and I tend to overcomplicate the low moisture cleaning process. The truth is, pre-vacuum and use Steve's chemicals, and try to do a good job, and most jobs will turn out acceptable.

Just like Steve is always trying to tweak his chemicals to preform the best possible, Coby and I like to tweak our process to do the same. And to do so, we need to understand how things work, both chemicals and equipment.
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#18
Don't worry Paul, everyone already knows that if they need help to become great VLMers,

they call the pad master "Padden McFadden, ,,,"

for proper instruction.
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#19
Coby.....now do a search and see how long ago I told you guys the shark was a great vacuum....while most were saying they would never use such a vacuum simply because of perception of customer How they want to only use something that appears to be different than the customer themselves could use as opposed to just wanting to use something that works well......and I will admit that a lot of the people I clean for now own a shark....because it is just a really good vacuum...It does just fine on damp carpet...in fact the shark and the hoover conquest are the only vacuums I have used on damp carpets with out any issues such as spitting out the black hair ball....I bought my last shark professional at Costco for $150 ....4+ years using a shark ...if only I had guru status so people would listen to me..Big Grin
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#20
Joel,

I think it was you that was telling me especially about the Shark? I went right out and bought one... was someone here on Sticky residue.

I thought for the price it was incredible... and still do. I also used it on two jobs today and will be posting the video below comparing it to my XP1500 (no Pacer214 today... not sure I'm going to try comparing it with the Shark as I already can see where it will be...not close). I was and am very embarrassed by the way the unit looks... but getting over it: wish I had tried more at the time I bought it.

As you can see in these videos, the Shark will outdo most vacuums... especially the important stuff (fine grit/sand that will damage yarns).. The hard part is balancing it all out. Even seeing what have seen with the Shark, my main tech and son "won't be caught dead" bringing that Shark into a house... absolutely flat against it and refuses to even entertain the idea that the Shark might be a better machine: and no, he is not a bad guy even with those beliefs (think of Truck Mount operators that you know as an example)....

My sons (& I) like the XP1500 or secondly, the Pacer214, or thirdly the Windsor with the new clean out on the head of the machine...

I could, however, get really used to liking this Shark Lift Away as it does an AWESOME job.

Ted Borecki also LOVES his that has lasted OVER 6 months now.

The Shark does take some getting used to: is does take longer and is easy to get lulled into see "just how much" soil you can keep getting ... AND it works so well you have to dump it often: way more soil than the bags I would normally use for my existing vacuums.

Example: I'm loading 4 more plastic grocery store bags to double up and have to empty into on job-sites, Ted says he uses trash bags... Them's some big vacuum bags :-).

Lots of testing to go...

Sooooo, some of the good things are: if it lasts, it is very affordable (I always carry at least two vacuums), it pulls soil! cleans hard floors, furniture and stairs really well....

Negatives? what clients will think (first impression) and the fact that it will take more time exactly because it does work way better than most: like emptying the machine, smaller head, etc, ... it does look at first like it will be difficult to replace parts like brushes, motors, etc.
I don't know what 3-4 jobs/day that are heavily soiled carpets will do to it....

WHAT will the profitability advantage be? I'll know it's cleaner, you will know it is cleaner... but the customer notice? Really? Compared to my XP1500? I'm not so sure...





On a side note; when you think of A GURU, think maggots/rotting. That is a correct association of objects.

The old saying: "Green things are growing and ripe things are rotting" is the real way to describe the Guru... Hardly a day/job goes by where I don't try SOMETHING new... then I'm old and forget half "tests" and probably try the same improvements over and over and over....

That's ok because is exciting and a growth opportunity to learn .... I'll NEVER reach guru status and I'll ALWAYS be able to hide my own Easter eggs....

On a good note to end: I don't really know what exactly the situation is about much of anything, just want to make sure all know that Paul Demer's will also always be wrong about it.
Coby Gibson
formerly: http://www.45Clean.com
CobyGibson@me.com

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