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#1
So after a bit of use although id like a little more I really can't decide if I like it or not. I have been thinking about selling it... It cleans great... But for me mostly just on cut pile nylon... The polys and Berber and cgd are a pain to me. I have not really noticed an increase in speed really... I did one cgd where it cleaned great but was so slow slow slow....so am I missing something... Lefty?? Other lovers of said machine?
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#2
Ditto. I like the cimex much more for commercial!
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#3
(11-18-2014, 11:40 AM)joelhall Wrote: So after a bit of use although id like a little more I really can't decide if I like it or not. I have been thinking about selling it... It cleans great... But for me mostly just on cut pile nylon... The polys and Berber and cgd are a pain to me. I have not really noticed an increase in speed really... I did one cgd where it cleaned great but was so slow slow slow....so am I missing something... Lefty?? Other lovers of said machine?

Sound like your pad driver is set on speed one. It should be on speed three at all times.
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#4
(11-18-2014, 11:40 AM)joelhall Wrote: So after a bit of use although id like a little more I really can't decide if I like it or not. I have been thinking about selling it... It cleans great... But for me mostly just on cut pile nylon... The polys and Berber and cgd are a pain to me. I have not really noticed an increase in speed really... I did one cgd where it cleaned great but was so slow slow slow....so am I missing something... Lefty?? Other lovers of said machine?
Sorry, been using my BlackBerry...so forum visits are a lot less frequent now.

Yes, I still have and love my Freedom. It does take a little longer than say a wheels down machine imo. I always use a MF pad first, then follow up with glads on every job. On the cleaner stuff I'll just get the traffic areas on the second pass.

I think for cgd, polyester, and Berbers, a spray system would help as well as wheels down. It would definitely speed things up.

Honestly, I think a Grumpy would be the best all around machine out there. But that just my opinion.

What pads are you using? Chems?
Carpet Cleaning Salinas, Monterey, Pebble Beach Ca
ProGreen Kleen & Floor Care
http://Progreenkleen.net
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#5
Is the grumpy worth the price? I understand it's very pricy.
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#6
I wouldnt say speed is the best thing about the unit. I know I "push" mine to get some speed, but my techs think that is is bit too much like work so they dont force it around to get production times. Consider a quick over on traffic areas after prespray, before going back for a full patient clean. I love my profit more than my freedom. I use them for Res, I have a CM & Rock for com. No grumpy yet.

Is grumpy worth the $ - only if you put it to work!!

If the grumpy makes you an extra $40 / hr, How long does it take to pay the 5000 - 5500, then once it is paid for how much more profit at the end of the year do you put into retirement funds?

From my rock, will the grumpy make an extra $10/hr? - 15? that is my Q. Selling used machines is a pain. I would like to buy the grumpy frame & transfer out my CM frame but that too is not a cheap adventure apparently.

Con
26 yrs in Alberta Canada. 2 truck & full rug plant operation. Cleanco Compact 47 TMs with RXs. Currently a Rock, a CM, & 2 Freedom Trinity, 3 Stepson. GLS20, rotary, 2 brute 17 & 2 breeze 17. 200psi porty. Dehus & dryers. Master tech.
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#7
The emphasis put on $/hour when discussing the Grumpy is very often exaggerated. That criteria can play a factor for sure, but all things considered it's not the tipping point that's it's often made out to be. When I have more time, maybe I can start a discussion explaining it.

Just quickly though, two guys clean 5000 sq ft of cgd. The guy with the Grumpy finishes in 3 hours. The guy with the Orbot finishes in 3.75 hours. The job pays $700. Who made more money?
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#8
(11-19-2014, 07:32 PM)REALCLEAN Wrote: The emphasis put on $/hour when discussing the Grumpy is very often exaggerated. That criteria can play a factor for sure, but all things considered it's not the tipping point that's it's often made out to be. When I have more time, maybe I can start a discussion explaining it.

Just quickly though, two guys clean 5000 sq ft of cgd. The guy with the Grumpy finishes in 3 hours. The guy with the Orbot finishes in 3.75 hours. The job pays $700. Who made more money?

In the example you give, cleaning with the Grumpy is 20 percent faster than cleaning with the Orbot. I think that a 20 percent reduction in labor costs is huge.

That being said, if you already own an Cimex, Orbot or other OP machine, and you purchase a Grumpy for the SOLE PURPOSE of increasing your productivity, it will take you some time to recoup the cost of your purchase.

In you own an Orbot and only spend 160 man hours per year cleaning commercial, with the Grumpy it will take you only 128 hours (assuming your 20 percent increase in efficiency), so you would save 32 hours. Assuming you were making 100 per hour cleaning with the Orbot, you made an additional $3,200. So, if you don't have that much commercial work and only use the Grumpy for commercial work, it would take two years to recoup your investment.

Now let's say you spend 640 man hours cleaning commercial carpet with an Orbot. With the Grumpy it will take only 512 hours, a difference of 128 hours or $12,800.

I actually think the Grumpy will clean in excess of 25 percent faster on commercial carpet, so the savings would be greater.

Now, let's say you want to purchase a new OP machine because you have that much work to support another machine.... now the increased productivity of the Grumpy is PURE PROFIT.

So, IMO , anyone that is buying their first OP machine, or anyone that wants to purchase an additional OP machine would be best to purchase a Grumpy .... for use on commercial carpet.

But I must say, I don't think the Grumpy just cleans faster, I think it cleans better than other OP machines, which would be another factor to consider.
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#9
(11-19-2014, 08:15 PM)Paul Demers Wrote:
(11-19-2014, 07:32 PM)REALCLEAN Wrote: The emphasis put on $/hour when discussing the Grumpy is very often exaggerated. That criteria can play a factor for sure, but all things considered it's not the tipping point that's it's often made out to be. When I have more time, maybe I can start a discussion explaining it.

Just quickly though, two guys clean 5000 sq ft of cgd. The guy with the Grumpy finishes in 3 hours. The guy with the Orbot finishes in 3.75 hours. The job pays $700. Who made more money?

In the example you give, cleaning with the Grumpy is 20 percent faster than cleaning with the Orbot. I think that a 20 percent reduction in labor costs is huge.

That being said, if you already own an Cimex, Orbot or other OP machine, and you purchase a Grumpy for the SOLE PURPOSE of increasing your productivity, it will take you some time to recoup the cost of your purchase.

In you own an Orbot and only spend 160 man hours per year cleaning commercial, with the Grumpy it will take you only 128 hours (assuming your 20 percent increase in efficiency), so you would save 32 hours. Assuming you were making 100 per hour cleaning with the Orbot, you made an additional $3,200. So, if you don't have that much commercial work and only use the Grumpy for commercial work, it would take two years to recoup your investment.

Now let's say you spend 640 man hours cleaning commercial carpet with an Orbot. With the Grumpy it will take only 512 hours, a difference of 128 hours or $12,800.

I actually think the Grumpy will clean in excess of 25 percent faster on commercial carpet, so the savings would be greater.

Now, let's say you want to purchase a new OP machine because you have that much work to support another machine.... now the increased productivity of the Grumpy is PURE PROFIT.

So, IMO , anyone that is buying their first OP machine, or anyone that wants to purchase an additional OP machine would be best to purchase a Grumpy .... for use on commercial carpet.

But I must say, I don't think the Grumpy just cleans faster, I think it cleans better than other OP machines, which would be another factor to consider.

Yes. This is the exact argument I'm talking about. It's overly simplistic and just doesn't correlate to many real world situations.

I learned this from my long history in the janitorial business. Employees are paid by the job. Doesn't matter if it takes 1 hour or 2 hours, pay is the same. Either the office is clean, or it's not. Problem is, many start taking shortcuts and almost all rationalize the exact same way, "Hmmm....I'm making $50 to clean this office. It takes me 2 hours. That's $25/hour. If I can get done in 1 hour, that's $50/hour!!! Wow!!!!"

Paycheck remains the exact same. Until they're fired for taking shortcuts.

You just can't relate manufacturing statistics to something like carpet cleaning. productivity matters. Buts it's exaggerated. If I have two jobs tomorrow, who cares if I get home 45 minutes earlier.
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#10
(11-19-2014, 07:32 PM)REALCLEAN Wrote: Yes. This is the exact argument I'm talking about. It's overly simplistic and just doesn't correlate to many real world situations.

I learned this from my long history in the janitorial business. Employees are paid by the job. Doesn't matter if it takes 1 hour or 2 hours, pay is the same. Either the office is clean, or it's not. Problem is, many start taking shortcuts and almost all rationalize the exact same way, "Hmmm....I'm making $50 to clean this office. It takes me 2 hours. That's $25/hour. If I can get done in 1 hour, that's $50/hour!!! Wow!!!!"

Paycheck remains the exact same. Until they're fired for taking shortcuts.

You just can't relate manufacturing statistics to something like carpet cleaning. productivity matters. Buts it's exaggerated. If I have two jobs tomorrow, who cares if I get home 45 minutes earlier.

The idea is that you use that 25 percent time savings doing other paying jobs, or at least marketing to obtain additional work.

And using a Grumpy to clean commercial carpet is certainly not taking a "shortcut" in the way we use that term.

and 45 minutes per day for 250 days per year is 185.5 hours. I would care !!!
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#11
(11-19-2014, 09:00 PM)Paul Demers Wrote:
(11-19-2014, 07:32 PM)REALCLEAN Wrote: Yes. This is the exact argument I'm talking about. It's overly simplistic and just doesn't correlate to many real world situations.

I learned this from my long history in the janitorial business. Employees are paid by the job. Doesn't matter if it takes 1 hour or 2 hours, pay is the same. Either the office is clean, or it's not. Problem is, many start taking shortcuts and almost all rationalize the exact same way, "Hmmm....I'm making $50 to clean this office. It takes me 2 hours. That's $25/hour. If I can get done in 1 hour, that's $50/hour!!! Wow!!!!"

Paycheck remains the exact same. Until they're fired for taking shortcuts.

You just can't relate manufacturing statistics to something like carpet cleaning. productivity matters. Buts it's exaggerated. If I have two jobs tomorrow, who cares if I get home 45 minutes earlier.

The idea is that you use that 25 percent time savings doing other paying jobs, or at least marketing to obtain additional work.

And using a Grumpy to clean commercial carpet is certainly not taking a "shortcut" in the way we use that term.

and 45 minutes per day for 250 days per year is 185.5 hours. I would care !!!

Absolutely no offense meant by this, but your "that's 185.5 hours!" comment is exactly what I'm talking about. That's a complete exaggeration. Take one day's work, claim it's an ideal, multiply it by one year.

With your time, you're either making money, or spending money. There is no in between.

The easiest way to explain it is this; at the end of your work day, did you lose work because you're running an Orbot instead of a Grumpy? 99.99% of the time, the answer is no. In real world scenarios, the Grumpy is a nice machine, but it's stupidly over priced. For that matter, even the Orbot is over priced now. With actual calculations, not hypothetical ones, it would take decades for the Grumpy to "pay for itself".
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#12
Lol oh brother. ..
Dustin

http://www.CleanTechCleaners.com
http://www.CleanTechsk.com


Grumpy,cm,cimex, 175's 13"-20",square pad,cyclo's,stepson wannabe
aerotech tm (actually KNOW how to use it Tongue), ninja portable, steamin demon(tsunami)
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#13
realC,

OK, I'll bite...

I own 4 different trinity units right now, the CM & Rock, both had very large jobs to do the next day after their arrival - in fact each machine had grossed its cost within 3 days of its arrival... Is everything after closer to profit than not?

Answer is No. I still own a building & utilities that need to be paid for & the juice that these jobs went to. The labor on these jobs also had to be paid etc.

That said, Everything after day 9 on the CM, and day 10 on the Rock, and they were paid for - in full.

My pair of profits - one now converted to a freedom - took a bit longer - but same thing, both had paid for themselves in less than 30 days -after all the other expenses.

Am I jumping on a grumpy? Not yet... I still have 2 com breezes kicking. Sold my brute 3 months ago though. Still keeping my original old brute 17 for washing my shop floor however. It is pretty UGLY!

Con
26 yrs in Alberta Canada. 2 truck & full rug plant operation. Cleanco Compact 47 TMs with RXs. Currently a Rock, a CM, & 2 Freedom Trinity, 3 Stepson. GLS20, rotary, 2 brute 17 & 2 breeze 17. 200psi porty. Dehus & dryers. Master tech.
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#14
as far as the janitorial employee analogy goes: sure that employee will cut corners to clean in half the time and then go sit on his/her couch. for us CC'ers that are actually busy, we will be scheduling other work in that time period, not sitting doing nothing. that's the difference, if the machine gets the work done faster and at least as clean, if not better clean, then we can get more jobs done in a day and hence schedule more work in a day.
Currently retired from HWE; VLM only. Commercial Only...well except for the occasional resi job every few weeks.

Carpet Cleaning Rochester NY
Carpet Cleaner Rochester NY

The tools I use or have on the van ... in order from most used, to least used:  Dyson ; 19" Cimex ; Multi-Sprayer ; Orbot ; Oreck-Orbiter ; Hoover-Conquest ; Cyclo Polisher ; DryPod ; 20" Whittaker Trio.
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#15
Not sure just the time argument will be the ultimate driver/answer for any of us? Probably time to the level of clean we are seeking?

Will try and actually sit down and answer this when I have more time/experience between the Freedom/Grumpy to compare.

This is the most dramatic/obvious difference-example so far?:
Did a Blockbuster store yesterday and today resulting in a much cleaner looking finish in right at 16% less time (averaged between the two) than normal with a less tired technician...
Then:
Also today did a nice three story house where the outside staircase was too slippery to get up even with two people and the Grumpy, the interior staircase was too small to get the Grumpy up also with two people... used the Freedom top 2 floors, Grumpy had the bottom 260sf floor. Grumpy obviously didn't do well in the house environment in this case compared to really well on the commercial...

More to come....

With my spray system on the Freedom to compare, things are also a bit different.

Not just speed: I love the cleaning quality of the Grumpy, I love the feel of the Grumpy AND I love the look comparatively of the Grumpy....
Coby Gibson
formerly: http://www.45Clean.com
CobyGibson@me.com

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#16
(11-20-2014, 12:15 AM)REALCLEAN Wrote:
(11-19-2014, 09:00 PM)Paul Demers Wrote:
(11-19-2014, 07:32 PM)REALCLEAN Wrote: Yes. This is the exact argument I'm talking about. It's overly simplistic and just doesn't correlate to many real world situations.

I learned this from my long history in the janitorial business. Employees are paid by the job. Doesn't matter if it takes 1 hour or 2 hours, pay is the same. Either the office is clean, or it's not. Problem is, many start taking shortcuts and almost all rationalize the exact same way, "Hmmm....I'm making $50 to clean this office. It takes me 2 hours. That's $25/hour. If I can get done in 1 hour, that's $50/hour!!! Wow!!!!"

Paycheck remains the exact same. Until they're fired for taking shortcuts.

You just can't relate manufacturing statistics to something like carpet cleaning. productivity matters. Buts it's exaggerated. If I have two jobs tomorrow, who cares if I get home 45 minutes earlier.

The idea is that you use that 25 percent time savings doing other paying jobs, or at least marketing to obtain additional work.

And using a Grumpy to clean commercial carpet is certainly not taking a "shortcut" in the way we use that term.

and 45 minutes per day for 250 days per year is 185.5 hours. I would care !!!

Absolutely no offense meant by this, but your "that's 185.5 hours!" comment is exactly what I'm talking about. That's a complete exaggeration. Take one day's work, claim it's an ideal, multiply it by one year.

With your time, you're either making money, or spending money. There is no in between.

The easiest way to explain it is this; at the end of your work day, did you lose work because you're running an Orbot instead of a Grumpy? 99.99% of the time, the answer is no. In real world scenarios, the Grumpy is a nice machine, but it's stupidly over priced. For that matter, even the Orbot is over priced now. With actual calculations, not hypothetical ones, it would take decades for the Grumpy to "pay for itself".


Time is money.
Every thing in the carpet cleaning industry is way over priced as far as value goes. Reason being is that things for our industry are custom made with a very small and limited market compared to other items manufactured products such as cars toasters light bulbs and so on.

Big production full time efficient robotic production facilities is the way only way to bring down prices. The market for carpet cleaning equipment is waay to small for that.
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#17
(11-19-2014, 07:32 PM)REALCLEAN Wrote: The emphasis put on $/hour when discussing the Grumpy is very often exaggerated. That criteria can play a factor for sure, but all things considered it's not the tipping point that's it's often made out to be. When I have more time, maybe I can start a discussion explaining it.

Just quickly though, two guys clean 5000 sq ft of cgd. The guy with the Grumpy finishes in 3 hours. The guy with the Orbot finishes in 3.75 hours. The job pays $700. Who made more money?

LOL Perhaps if you owned a Grumpy you would have the time to better explain your theory on time management! I'm sorry
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#18
while cleaning with freedom my Experince has been that I have to slow down and let the machine do its thing ( scrub and clean ). Yes I could push it faster but this does not clean as well. It really moves at the rate of challenger and Orbot I see no real speed difference as far as the rate I'm moving. The larger orbit and increased head weight can cut down number of passes which can lead to speed. The cleaning action and. Head weight of freedom and grumpy are similar if not the same correct??? Grumpy can be pushed fast because of wheels on the ground. But so far my experience with the trinity is you still have to slow down and allow machine time to scrub and do its thing [/align]
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#19
(11-20-2014, 02:02 AM)Derek Wrote: as far as the janitorial employee analogy goes: sure that employee will cut corners to clean in half the time and then go sit on his/her couch. for us CC'ers that are actually busy, we will be scheduling other work in that time period, not sitting doing nothing. that's the difference, if the machine gets the work done faster and at least as clean, if not better clean, then we can get more jobs done in a day and hence schedule more work in a day.

That's a theory and an ideal for sure. But I stay busy and at the end of each work day I have not yet had to turn down work because I didn't have time because I didn't have a Grumpy.

My janitorial analogy, probably poor, was just to point out the faulty $/hour thinking when it comes to carpet cleaning. We're paid by the job, not the hour. But when justifying the price on a Grumpy, you often see that as a primary argument.
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#20
(11-20-2014, 05:51 AM)Mardie VanBree Wrote:
(11-20-2014, 12:15 AM)REALCLEAN Wrote:
(11-19-2014, 09:00 PM)Paul Demers Wrote:
(11-19-2014, 07:32 PM)REALCLEAN Wrote: Yes. This is the exact argument I'm talking about. It's overly simplistic and just doesn't correlate to many real world situations.

I learned this from my long history in the janitorial business. Employees are paid by the job. Doesn't matter if it takes 1 hour or 2 hours, pay is the same. Either the office is clean, or it's not. Problem is, many start taking shortcuts and almost all rationalize the exact same way, "Hmmm....I'm making $50 to clean this office. It takes me 2 hours. That's $25/hour. If I can get done in 1 hour, that's $50/hour!!! Wow!!!!"

Paycheck remains the exact same. Until they're fired for taking shortcuts.

You just can't relate manufacturing statistics to something like carpet cleaning. productivity matters. Buts it's exaggerated. If I have two jobs tomorrow, who cares if I get home 45 minutes earlier.

The idea is that you use that 25 percent time savings doing other paying jobs, or at least marketing to obtain additional work.

And using a Grumpy to clean commercial carpet is certainly not taking a "shortcut" in the way we use that term.

and 45 minutes per day for 250 days per year is 185.5 hours. I would care !!!

Absolutely no offense meant by this, but your "that's 185.5 hours!" comment is exactly what I'm talking about. That's a complete exaggeration. Take one day's work, claim it's an ideal, multiply it by one year.

With your time, you're either making money, or spending money. There is no in between.

The easiest way to explain it is this; at the end of your work day, did you lose work because you're running an Orbot instead of a Grumpy? 99.99% of the time, the answer is no. In real world scenarios, the Grumpy is a nice machine, but it's stupidly over priced. For that matter, even the Orbot is over priced now. With actual calculations, not hypothetical ones, it would take decades for the Grumpy to "pay for itself".


Time is money.
Every thing in the carpet cleaning industry is way over priced as far as value goes. Reason being is that things for our industry are custom made with a very small and limited market compared to other items manufactured products such as cars toasters light bulbs and so on.

Big production full time efficient robotic production facilities is the way only way to bring down prices. The market for carpet cleaning equipment is waay to small for that.

Lots of truth there for sure. Great point!
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